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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:07 am

VixensVengeance wrote:Lol did everyone give up or are you all just sitting in silent judgement?


Did not read either of your posts until today.

Part of my personal discipline is to not be here over the weekends.
On some posts, I will let them go for a bit as I can be a controlling presence and prefer to give others a chance.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:16 am

Cool, And I think we have discussed the bible before so I really dont want to go all sideways into that sort of debate. Just wanted to clarify my position.

It seems David has left the discussion though? Unless you know something I dont. Very Happy

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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:54 am

Nope, know nothing about Davids current intentions on this discussion beyond what has already been stated.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:39 pm

Micheal wrote:Nope, know nothing about Davids current intentions on this discussion beyond what has already been stated.

Does he seem a bit holier than thou? I mean, I honestly don't mean to criticize, but I'm just not sure why he comes into a thread like this, appears to pass some judgement on me, and then just fly away into the night. Am I being to sensitive?
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Re: The bully

Post by David on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:25 pm

"David, are you saying that you believe me to be a bully or have characteristics of a bully?"

Huh? I don't know you. We are discussing architypes. I stand by everything I've said. If you don't understand why I said it, questions will get you further than arguing your interpretation of my meaning. Sorry, I'm just busy.

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Re: The bully

Post by David on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:47 pm

"However you did imply that it was the womans fault when you said that bullies would not exist without weak people. But the mere existence of weak people does not create a bully. That is the choice of the bully because weak people also create great leaders."

I implied that if we take a 280 lb ball and roll it toward a 105 lb ball, the lighter ball will move as per directed by the heavier and at a correlating speed. Nothing more.

Do I think that women who dress provocatively, go places any free person is free to go, or changes her mind is asking for it? No. No means no. However, we know that the ideal that looks so good on paper doesn't stack up to reality. Would I convict? If the event was beyond shadow of doubt. Is the girl a dumbass for wearing a miniskirt in the hood after dark? Absolutely. Am I wrong in this thinking? No. Why? Because I do not expect the world to hold my ideals. In fact, I count on people to do whatever they are capable of doing. Do you realize we live in a world where people marry pillows, eating shit makes them horny, and, and there has been at least one person to require castration due to the infection caused by fucking a piñata?

The holier than thou smell comes from your projection and dissatisfaction with reality, a dimension that I am acting as an agent for by not allowing you to slip away from the crux of the matter.

Even still, nothing personal.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:10 am

Holier than though? 

Lol where are you getting that!!?? I guess that is where I'm most confused? How have i disagreed with what you just posted? In fact I agree with it. Being a dumbass has nothing to do with deserving or asking for a consequence of that dumbassery. 

I believe everyone should take responsibility for their own actions and their own lives. Bad things happen every day and that will never change. I don' care if a girl walks into the hood in a mini skirt or a parka and snow pants, the potential exists that she will get raped. But it' still her choice to walk in the hood. But if she makes that choice she better damn well be able to defend her own body from attackers if she makes that choice. Cuz karma ain' gonna give a shit and neither will divine Intervention. And if she walks in the hood and can't do that, then she' a dumbass. 

Its about taking responsibility for ourselves and our own actions. A little more interaction would be better than assumptions and silent posturing but hey don' let me interrupt your busy schedule.

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Re: The bully

Post by David on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:49 am

VixensVengeance wrote:
Micheal wrote:Nope, know nothing about Davids current intentions on this discussion beyond what has already been stated.

Does he seem a bit holier than thou? I mean, I honestly don't mean to criticize, but I'm just not sure why he comes into a thread like this, appears to pass some judgement on me, and then just fly away into the night. Am I being to sensitive?

I'm not posturing, I just don't care about your beliefs or values. In fact, I'm here to challenge them. Scratch that. I'm here to train you to challenge them. From conflict comes growth. A conclusion is a marker which defines the spot where a person is too lazy or incapable of thinking any further.

Do you think that I think my thoughts on any subject are important, has high ground, or are more correct? Still you project your bloated sense of self upon me. I am a flea on a dying dog. Lol. But still, I must persist; it's my karma, my purpose.

Can you see no admirable quality in the bully?

Can you see the need that must exist to fuel the bully into extreme behavior?

What would you fight for?

Ya know, the easiest way to boil a frog is to put it in room temperature water, then turn the heat up slowly. Too fast and it will jump out. But slowly, the frog accepts its condition until it dies and is cooked.

What if one person's bully is another person's champion? They never ask why you broke the rule, only that you did. In fact, the reason why crimes are committed are usually inadmissible as a defense such to the point that both attorneys are forbidden from letting the jury know that some relevant situation to the case even exists!

Cause and effect. Something always led to the man stealing the bus in the nude and trying to eat your face. Responsibility? Of course. I wouldn't suggest people get off the hook for failure to successfully navigate the crux of any situation. After all, you can't cheat mother nature.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:45 pm

If you don' care about my beliefs or values then why reply at all? You actually provide no conflict. Conflict is an active engagement not a drive by. Drive bys only serve to polarize.  

Yes actually your behavior screams a sense of self inflated purpose. I understand that you trained snowy. She shows this characteristic as well. One of the reasons I left FA. 

No, I see no admirable qualities in the bully. Any qualities there that could be characterzed as admirable are abused by the bully, making them irrelevant.

I would fight for myself and I would fight for a cause that i find worthy and I would fight for family or friends or comrades. I would never fight for fighting sake, that is what a bully does.

Anyone that views the bully as a champion has misplaced loyalty, an inability for independent thought and in that they are flawed and wrong. Never asking why is a character flaw.
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Re: The bully

Post by Manu on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:31 pm

Bully is a loaded word. It evokes the likes of Back to the Future's Biff Tannen, a character that can only use force to get what he wants, as he lacks any kind of depth, intellect or nobility.

This bully cliché is necessary as a comic relief and at to position him as someone no one wants to emulate.


But what happens when you leave fiction and come back to reality? The bully is much more profound than meets the eye.

To bully is simply to persuade by means of threat of superior force.

Isn't the USA the "bully of the world"? And yet it remains at the military head of it. Peace is made such ways. Or is peace possible any other way?

How does a CEO lead a company? Of course, the clever CEO knows her cause and consequence, so she will use empowerment, positive reinforcement, and other management tools to communicate her vision. But it is the power of her position which underlies the execution of an effective chain of command, and when push comes to shove heads roll in order to convey what behaviors are acceptable or not. Does that not make her a bully?

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:37 pm

No it does not and your analogy is bullshit. Cooersion is different than bullying. Coersion as you describe is a means to a productive end. Bullying in the other hand has no end. It is self gratifying. A means of domination that has no productive outcome other than to gratify the bully.

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Re: The bully

Post by Manu on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:07 pm

Where do you get your definition of bullying from?

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:16 pm

Personal experience. Where do you get yours?

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Re: The bully

Post by Manu on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:21 pm

Google  Laughing

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:36 pm

Irrelevant. If your going to dance around and waste my time. Please dont bother.

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Re: The bully

Post by Manu on Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:38 pm

Aren't you the one who is always in the mood for fun?

My point was that as long as we are arguing semantics we will get nowhere. In your definition of what a bully is, I agree that I see nothing to look up to.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:32 pm

I am always up for fun. Dont get me wrong lol. But its also not a game till someone gets hurt just as its not a party till the cops are called. If you cant hang then dont compete. 

The definition of a bully is not up for semantic interrpretation as far as I'm concerned. They are about cruelty for the love of cruelty and that is not a productive use of power.
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Re: The bully

Post by Manu on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:30 am

VixensVengeance wrote:I am always up for fun. Dont get me wrong lol. But its also not a game till someone gets hurt just as its not a party till the cops are called. If you cant hang then dont compete. 

The definition of a bully is not up for semantic interrpretation as far as I'm concerned. They are about cruelty for the love of cruelty and that is not a productive use of power.

That is why I asked about your dictionary. I've looked around and I see some dictionaries define bullying as persuasion through intimidation, without listing motives.

Celebrating your own victory through force is only unproductive because it is short lived.

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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:28 am

The problem with arguing your own definitions is you cannot always guarantee someone will get what you mean.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:12 am

Magnus wrote:
VixensVengeance wrote:I am always up for fun. Dont get me wrong lol. But its also not a game till someone gets hurt just as its not a party till the cops are called. If you cant hang then dont compete. 

The definition of a bully is not up for semantic interrpretation as far as I'm concerned. They are about cruelty for the love of cruelty and that is not a productive use of power.

That is why I asked about your dictionary. I've looked around and I see some dictionaries define bullying as persuasion through intimidation, without listing motives.

Celebrating your own victory through force is only unproductive because it is short lived.

Yes that is one definition, like in the work place or something. but here I think we are talking about one sort of bully, the first definiton of a bully.

a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.

Thats the sort I am speaking about.
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Re: The bully

Post by David on Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:42 pm

VixensVengeance wrote:If you don' care about my beliefs or values then why reply at all? You actually provide no conflict. Conflict is an active engagement not a drive by. Drive bys only serve to polarize.
I don't care about opinions, I care about people. And, I spend a great deal of time helping people to understand that they are not their thoughts or opinions. My chosen methodology of conferring insight is as an antagonist. My drive by, as you say, is more of a criticism that you are unscathed than my effort - as I've explained, I've been busy.

VixensVengeance wrote:Yes actually your behavior screams a sense of self inflated purpose. I understand that you trained snowy. She shows this characteristic as well. One of the reasons I left FA.
You're reading me wrong; I promise. Don't understand that at all. I gave here some help, but the Snow you met was all her, not me.

VixensVengeance wrote:No, I see no admirable qualities in the bully. Any qualities there that could be characterzed as admirable are abused by the bully, making them irrelevant.
Then the bully archetype is beyond your ability to appreciate. Shall I paint you a more palatable picture with the words of buddha "It's all good". Or, how about Joseph Campbell, "The first step to the knowledge of the wonder and mystery of life is the recognition of the monstrous nature of the earthly human realm as well as its glory, the realization that this is just how it is and that it cannot and will not be changed. Those who think they know how the universe could have been had they created it, without pain, without sorrow, without time, without death, are unfit for illumination." And again, "The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek."

VixensVengeance wrote:I would fight for myself and I would fight for a cause that i find worthy and I would fight for family or friends or comrades. I would never fight for fighting sake, that is what a bully does.
[Slow clap] spoken like a hero goody lighty tighty.

VixensVengeance wrote:Anyone that views the bully as a champion has misplaced loyalty, an inability for independent thought and in that they are flawed and wrong.
Between us, who is the one regurgitating what they were raised to say, which is the same mindless, group-think, sheep minded platitudes that everyone else says like a mantra?

http://billmoyers.com/content/ep-2-joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-the-message-of-the-myth/

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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:58 am

You internalize a lot VV, which speaks to an insecurity that both David and I latch onto.  Are you these things?
If you were our engagements would be completely different.  You do in fact have a well developed sense of right and wrong and show traits we jedi... especially myself, hold dear.

Don't let David fool you, he is as good as they come.  And would do many of the things he just now downplayed.

As he said, he is the antagonist, so will present you with an 'anti' simply because when one meets an obstacle, they either bow to it or rise above it.  He rarely displays who he really is.

Snowy however can never be said to be a product of David.  I will not spend a lot of time giving you an analysis of her because to do so is to give her a place in my head I removed her from a long time ago.  But suffice it to say she is the perfect leader for the DA FA.

Queen of a poisoned realm.

One is not capable of creation when their mind is set on destruction. 

The two do not compare, David if you let him will get you to think.  He will challenge you and not with his own personally held opinions but with opinions which will challenge you.

He does not know what you require, but takes what you give, paints a picture, and has you look at it.

How you look at it is entirely up to you.  Go back and look at your responses with that knowledge and see if I am accurate or not?

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Re: The bully

Post by Manu on Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:43 am

I see no further reason to dissect Snowy here, as she is not here.

And just because her style does not mesh with yours, VV, does not equal her being "self-inflated", whatever that means.

But of course, you can just proceed to dismiss anything that you do not immediately understand, as you have done so far both at FA and here.

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Re: The bully

Post by David on Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:56 am

Right you are, Magnus.

Thank you Vandor. I will reduce my angle of approach where my instincts tell me to post images like below and start in on nonduality.



VixensVengeance wrote:Lol did everyone give up or are you all just sitting in silent judgement?
Quite the inverse, my friend. Where you have stated conclusions, I have raised questions.

If you were raped, I do not blame you. It's not your fault. The ultimate folly of rape is seeking control. We are not in control. We are on a clod of mud and metal zipping through space. The most redeemable quality I can award a rapist is on implementation of their delusion. Students come and ask questions, and one of the quickest canned answers we have is to have them write it out in black and white. In doing so, most can see the error in their thoughts. So, when a person goes from fantasy to actually committing a crime, the action acts as a catalyst toward achieving what I would have had them to write. In the case of the rapist, they run with it; they become serial rapists and eventually caught. It may be for only a few seconds as they're being strapped down for lethal injection, but in those moments the rapist learned the sublime truth about control. I must applaud this, as many more people March through life with half-ass thoughts that never go anywhere. So for me, the rapist reminds me (borrowing again from Campbell) to follow my bliss regardless of cost. That if it is truly the only important thing in my life, that all of the sacrifices I must make mean nothing. And lastly, that life is dozen monkeys trying to fuck a football and in the end the jokes on me. Now I can appreciate the bully for wasting their life so that mine can be saved.

See?

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:35 pm

Alien wrote:Ash: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? The perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.
Lambert: You admire it.
Ash: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality

This conversation and in particular Davids comments reminded me of a Quote from the original Alien movie. A quote about the perfection of something considered by most to be a vile and evil thing. I think this is what you are getting at, David?

Nature is not fair and it spends most of its time trying to kill us. But as a darkider I welcome that, even embrace it because it is strife and challenge and suffering that make me grow. I try to embrace that but I think I missed that in the archetype of the bully. My own bias was keeping me from seeing the truth of that matter in the fact that the bully is something that, while I hate, is also necessary and something to be admired for what it is outside the context of my own preconceptions. Once I removed myself from those I could appreciate that.


If we are not our thoughts and opinions then who are we?



@Micheal, Yes maybe I do internalize a lot. I have been abused in the past... by mentors. Its hard to admit to myself that I have put myself in a situation where I allowed this to happen. I am angry with myself for not seeing and letting it happen. I should have been better than that, more aware. I grew up with physical bullies all around me and I never want that to happen again. I consider myself strong and independent but bullies come in all forms. Many times those forms of manipulation and coercion are quite subtle and done through the seduction of the tongue and not the fist. I found that out the hard way as well, twice.

As a result I find myself unable to trust anyone in that position of authority over me. Probably a big part of my running around all over these boards and acting like an idiot. Pretending not to care is easy, it relieves me of any responsibility. But I do care, however, I cant allow myself to show it because that means I have to give that power over to someone else. The internet is easy, because you get to hide behind a keyboard, but what does that really get me? not much probably. In the mean time I wonder if anyone is worthy of both my admiration and my trust. This is not anyone's fault though... just mine.
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