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The bully

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The bully

Post by Micheal on Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:49 am

This morning while reading Facebook, a high school friend opined on a subject started by another high school person.

The class bully.

At 47/48 he was glad to have just beat a rap in court because he got into, 'Just a fist fight' and beat it.

Sad really.  I can see how I could be brought into such, hence my training, but to continue to find such things happening to you and having to go to court due to them...

Then I noticed... I could not tell if he had started the fight or if he defended himself/others.  That I was judging him by his prior activities.
I then watched myself wanting to engage in the discussion, seeing an engagement between us... the part of me that learned since high school how to deal with bullies now wanting to deal with the ultimate issue... ones own bully.

Would he think me the same person I was then, allowing himself to be surprised by the combat vet/former correction officer/and currently training martial artist.

It is interesting how such things can allow negativity into our minds.

In the end, I did not respond, in my mind I wished him well, and ignored it.  IF he would learn from me, he need not hear from me.  For he would have already learned from others in his life (Like the guy who he and I both know who did respond). 

Now... I pity him.  What kind of a life has he led due to this.  I remember his high school sweetheart he was gonna marry was gorgeous... are they still together or more likely have they parted ways?  What kind of opportunities did he miss due to it.  I remember his goal in high school was to join the air force and become a pilot... did he?

I wish him well and hope for the best for him.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:51 pm

I understand why you did not respond, if he was going to learn a life lesson he should have learned it by now, right? But what if he hasn't? What if your interaction would have been the last straw that sent him over the edge to redemption and you denied him that?  Sure he may get it in the next encounter but who gets hurt before that, and in the face of your ignorance either way, why wish him well?

Instead I would wish him to get what he deserves. If he has changed he will reap that reward, but if he has not then more than likely his life is in shambles and he will have justified his pathetic existence through hollow victories like beating a minor court wrap. 

Life is not fair but I believe in vengeance and if a person does not get what they deserve at least they will never get my pity.
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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:19 am

My wife has an x-husband who married someone 20 years younger then him who comes from a disgustingly rich family. 

It eats at my wifes very core that he just recently was given a new SUV.

This is why I do not spend a lot of time thinking to judge others.  In spite of the fact that he is 2 years younger then me, has had 2 back surgeries, a bypass due to heart attack, and cannot hold down a job for longer then 5 months without sexually harassing another woman. (Hence their separation, he stays with this one because she lets him fool around... which says a lot)

What I think is proper vengeance is not always the best method.  Not to mention it pigeonholes me into caring about their life.  She subjugates herself to that and her kids instead of focusing on her life and making that her vengeance.

Afterall... the best vengeance I can give him is to not be allowed to get to know me.  And to not care what happens to him.  And in that I pity him, for that is one avenue less he has.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:21 am

Yours might be the safest form in any case. Before vengeance is dolled out in any way its always best to carefully consider the consequences and one must be prepared to accept those, foreseen or unforeseen.
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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:34 am

Marriage counselors will tell you that the opposite of love is not hate... its apathy.  So if they see a couple who hates eachother... they are still salvageable.

This struck me as rather profound when I first heard it...

Then I had an instance where my first x-wife went from trying to destroy me to wanting to have sex with me.  Never was gonna happen as I was at the time dating my wife... but it brought this back to my mind for where I am completely apathetic towards my X... she is always hateful... until she decided it was the 'right time' to make a play for me. 

The anger is giving the other person space within ones mind.  If for negative or positive... that is still a space that could go towards other things.

Better things one would hope... but it is still space which all are limited on to begin with. 

So yes, it is safer, much harder though.

I understand to one who has anger, what I just said is ludicrous.  The anger seems so right.  The vengeance so justified.

Imagine how that x felt when I categorically turned her down.  I am at current not allowed on her property to the point she will call the cops, I know this only because she told me, I prefer the concept really.  Last I knew she doesn't work.  Has kicked a lot of her family out to the point her family has all but disowned her.  Her hate of me has done her little good and honestly, my life is far superior in many ways.  It is far more damaging to ones psyche to be dismissed then anything else.

And that leaves me sad for them.  To not recognize this.

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Re: The bully

Post by David on Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:35 pm

It takes a group of weaklings to make a bully, otherwise it's just bad behavior. Much like a hero, but one you don't like.

The crowds shout, "be like us: be normal and civil." "... or, we will join together to kill you."

Such an obvious hatred for ambition. We all have our Brutuses.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 pm

How do you justify bully behaviour as ambition?
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Re: The bully

Post by David on Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:00 pm

Laughing I don't have to. It's there. Seeing it is your choice.

Break the bully down. What are the motives? Likely is, the bully wants something just a little more than those who would keep him/her from it. The bully is willing to cross the line by snatching a handful of hair and proving his/her sincerity.

Feeling flawless in your shoes made in a sweat shop by some kid who couldn't afford a pair if they saved for 20 years?

Oh but you do look supurb in them, love. Keep flashing your hypocrisy; it's intoxicating.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:00 am

David wrote:Laughing I don't have to. It's there. Seeing it is your choice.

Break the bully down. What are the motives? Likely is, the bully wants something just a little more than those who would keep him/her from it. The bully is willing to cross the line by snatching a handful of hair and proving his/her sincerity.

Feeling flawless in your shoes made in a sweat shop by some kid who couldn't afford a pair if they saved for 20 years?

Oh but you do look supurb in them, love. Keep flashing your hypocrisy; it's intoxicating.

What is it he wants? You say "something" all vaguely and mysteriously but that's just bullshit. Your avoiding. What sincerity is he proving? Do you believe that the dark path (ambition) is about oppression or abuse of others just for abuses sake? Because that's what I see the goal of a bully as.

You lost me with your weird shoe remark as well.. uhh what???

My hypocrisy??
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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:28 pm

I see where you are getting ambition.  Most bullies come from families of bullies so it is ambitious on their part to keep up the family business so to speak.

But it is hardly the victims fault.  Violence is not something genetic, but is taught, either by application or need.  Hence why most sheepdogs come out of the situation where they were bullied or someone close was. 

Which of course then continues the cycle of violence which is seen everywhere. 

Where I see where you get ambition... I have to disagree.  It is trained morality that they DO NOT break the mold of.  The weak are expected to break the mold but not the bully.  In fact it is the return to that very thing which they hate... being bullied.

I have yet to confront a bully who when faced with someone who can confront them... are no longer as brave as they would be against a weaker opponent.  This is not ambition by any means.

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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:36 pm

For VV.

Your approach to everything is straight forward.  No nuance to it but direct.

Sheepdogs typically face the accusation of who exactly is the bully.  The bully or the sheepdog who confronts the bully.  You come off like this.

Hence the hypocrisy label. 
Are you a hypocrite here?  I think not, I think that was given to you to see how you respond to it.  But you are being consistent in your application of your perception. 

Of course, for the rest of you, this issue I brought forth is a hypothetical.  Change out my bully with yours though and then... perhaps the hypocrit label would be valid.

I would be the bully if I confronted the guy now, their is no doubt in my mind the outcome so what good would come out of it?  In the balancing of good and evil, more evil would be achieved by such an act on my part then otherwise.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:18 pm

What is a sheepdog?

I see no ambition when it comes to a bully, even as you say Micheal, to keep up the family business. This is not ambition, it is brutality for the sake of appearance that evolves from insecurity or jealously etc. This is not a valid passion because the bully does not use the desire to better himself but to tear others down. Thus its a misplaced and useless pursuit at its best definition.

Even moreso to actually blame the weaker recipient of this brutality is ridiculous in the extreme. It relieves the responsibility for the bullies actions and puts it on his victim. Thats equivalent to believing that when a woman is raped, that its her fault and the rapist is just being ambitious.
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Re: The bully

Post by David on Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:04 am

Something is a very specific object, if nothing more than domination, power, or an endorphin rush.

If you understood that I am referencing a specific, unknown, object, the "bullying for abuses sake" is a moot point.

My shoe remark: As a dark student, always check yourself for similarities with the antagonist before criticising. We can take pride in our taintedness, while leaving hypocritical condescension for the lighter folk.

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Re: The bully

Post by David on Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:28 am

VixensVengeance wrote:Thats equivalent to believing that when a woman is raped, that its her fault and the rapist is just being ambitious.
Fault in this statement is an afterthought, a judgement that occurs after the fact.

No one ever blames the bigger fish for eating the smaller fishes. Likewise, blame isn't a part of this conversation; we are discussing the way things are, not ideology.

Yes, rape is ambition. Horrible and misdirected, but ambition. Ambition is a strong desire. Please do not confuse it with special terms like passion. Drug use more closely resembles a passion, but it fails the test because the practice of it does not empower the user to do more. In contrast, drug use disempowers further use. Similarly, the consequence of rape is incarceration. Thus, rape can never be a suitable passion.

I

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Re: The bully

Post by David on Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:41 am

VixensVengeance wrote:This is not a valid passion because the bully does not use the desire to better himself but to tear others down.
Your morality is no measure of validity. No one's is, except unto themselves. I suppose bettering others IS a valid passion by your standards?

What's the difference?



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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:53 am

VixensVengeance wrote:What is a sheepdog?

Their are three types of people in this world when you look at it in terms of aggression/counter-aggression.

Wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs.

Wolves are the predators who prey on the weak.

The sheep are the weak... embodies 90% of the human population.

Sheepdogs are those who have came out of the sheep pack to protect the sheep from the wolves.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:30 am

I still think this is being mischaracterized. The sheep don’t have the hatred of ambition, they have the hatred of oppression – the object of the ambition for a bully. Sheep can be just as ambitious and those that stand out in this can be praised just as much as hated for their pursuit of the object of their ambition. It depends on the object, not the ambition itself, though.
 
David, are you saying that you believe me to be a bully or have characteristics of a bully?
 
Sometimes I blame the bigger fish for eating the smaller one. Or the momma cat for eating her babies. I’m like WTF cat!!! What is wrong with you!
 
As far as drug use, it depends on the drug. People take prescription drugs for their entire lives. People smoke marijuana and drink alcohol their entire lives and have no issues with it. It’s not the drug use, it’s the abuse of the drug that disempowers them. Bullies are the exact same way, they have a power and they use that power to their eventual detriment. If they use that power in a positive way it can be channeled into the pursuit of great things but if they use it for oppression eventually they will encounter a sheepdog, as Micheal says, and be put down. This could come on the playground or it could come later in life by the loss of employment etc because they don’t play well with others.
 
It has nothing to do with morality, it has to do with human nature and their proclivity for cooperation in pack environments. Lone wolves will get cut from the pack one way or another. Same thing for the rapist, they get put in jail. However you did imply that it was the womans fault when you said that bullies would not exist without weak people. But the mere existence of weak people does not create a bully. That is the choice of the bully because weak people also create great leaders. Ultimately it’s the choice/character flaw of the individual to pursue that natural ambition to either be great or be an ass.
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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:40 am

I could not disagree with you more and think it a backwards thing to think.  All of our actions deal with morality and the more we look away from morality... the more we can expect people to act immoral.

And in this, I do not mean that I think everyone should act biblically... more to the point I know no one... to include myself, can.  When we fail to look at something from a moral point of view... the less we place another in a position to seek their own morals.

It is human nature to move away from morality simply because the moral thing is not always the easiest or most fun.

But lets think on this.

Is it immoral to hit someone for no reason?  Easier then having to come to terms with them and yes... hitting someone can be fun.  Does not make it moral.

For David, where I see what you are saying... I have to disagree.  bullyproof the world and the world will just make a better bully.

Or even worse... more bullies.

For as a sheepdog, I have been accused of bullying more times then I can remember.  I can sit here and say everytime I have stood up to a bully, it was for the right reason... that does not mean another has to agree with me.

So the need is not necessarily for the weak to get strong... but for the strong to learn morality.

The rule of might makes right only hopes that the strongest will be just.  It does not guarantee it.

Where I think you both are talking from extremes... the middle is more appropriate.

No, the weak are not responsible for a bully attacking them.
The weak are responsible for learning how to limit the possibility of a bully harming them.
And yes, I understand this is not always possible.  That does not excuse one from continuing to find ways to make it possible.

And really, it does not take being a better fighter then the bully (or the rapist) but having an understanding of your environment and a better sense of self worth.

As a correction officer, I remember asking an inmate how he would pick his targets?  His response was, "They all have victim written all over them".

Which means they have a certain look about them.  Looking down, looking beaten, etc.

Hold your head high, look around, be confident in who you are, and if attacked scream bloody murder and fight back.

They want the easy victim, not the one who will fight back.

Usually with a bully, it takes one punch right to the nose to stop them from attacking... yeah they might still hurt you, but after they will not strike again because they do not like being hurt anymore then another does... and unfortunately in their lives they are normally being beaten at home as well (they had to learn the behavior somewhere).  So it is a cascading effect.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:43 am

I did not mean to imply morality was not a factor in everything we do and every decision we make. What I meant was that above, in my discussion, I was not making points from a moral standpoint as David implied I was.

I'm glad you say we should not act morally according to the bible because that would relegate us to moral thugs bent on violence, slavery, genocide and misogyny. Sad  

I dont find it fun but satisfying to hit someone for a reason, however I have never taken any pleasure in violence for no reason. That is a personal moral code I must live by, because it is what I am made of. Others are different and they will act according to their moral code, and they must also be willing to accept consequences of those actions.
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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:20 pm

VixensVengeance wrote:
I'm glad you say we should not act morally according to the bible because that would relegate us to moral thugs bent on violence, slavery, genocide and misogyny. Sad  

Now I see better where you are going with this David. 

Not bully at all, victim over-reaction.

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:26 pm

Micheal wrote:
VixensVengeance wrote:
I'm glad you say we should not act morally according to the bible because that would relegate us to moral thugs bent on violence, slavery, genocide and misogyny. Sad  

Now I see better where you are going with this David. 

Not bully at all, victim over-reaction.


What??
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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal on Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:53 pm

You have stated here that others have utilized the bible against you in a negative fashion.
Instead of taking the time to learn what the book really says, you take human behavior described within the bible (although I do not recall genocide anywhere... but whatever) and make it the bad thing not the actions of the individuals.

Yes, the bible has episodes of what not to do in it, but any objective reading of it will demonstrate that the morality of the bible is to disagree with such things.

So where you lash out (which is what I think David was focused on) it is not in a bullying fashion (which I have stated previously that I do not think you are) but as the victim lashing out.

Like the person who looses a loved one to gun violence demanding all guns be confiscated.
Like the feminist who now hates all men because one did her wrong.
Like the man who becomes a racist against blacks because a black man raped his daughters.

Guns are not inherently good or bad.
Men are not completely bad.
Blacks are not as a whole bad people.
And the bible certainly does not teach violence, slavery, genocide, nor misogyny.

And yet victims routinely go overboard in their reactions to an issue instead of learning to not let such happen again.

As far as hitting someone being fun... I love it when one of my students can hit me in a way which hurts or leaves a bruise.

If they can, its a good indication they will be able to hold their own outside of the dojo.  Its one of the greatest moments I can think of for my greatest fear is that they will go out, and their skills I have taught them will fail them.  But that does not mean I take every person I teach, give them a place to stay in my house and live their lives for them so I can guarantee they never get hurt.

This to me is as foolish as your hatred of the bible.

And personally, it pains me to see such an obviously intelligent woman allow such ignorance to live in her.

The bigotry I get, you are welcome to hate us which embrace the bible all day long and I would readily understand.  (LOL... and for certain those of the cloth who preach it for I have had my experiences with many who would use such corruptly.) But a book? Rolling Eyes

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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance on Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:55 pm

No, I have stated that others have used christian worldviews to make me feel guilty for what they perceived as bad behaviour.

You tell me I have not read the bible and yet you claim ignorance of the passages of Genocide?

The bible has passages that depict not only genocide including pregnant women but also the destruction of those races livestock. It commands the Hebrews to take women for themselves (kidnapping, slavery, rape) and gives rules for slavery condoned by their God. It tells women to be obedient and not to speak in matters of importance. It treats them like property and allows their sacrifice and rape and selling by their fathers.

Was the bible written by God? Then he condones and endorses these things.

I don't believe that guns should be taken because of crime committed with them, I dont hate men And no the bible does not teach violence, genocide, misogyny, it condones and endorses it. Even commands it.

I'm not angry at the bible, I don't believe I ever stated that. Its just a book. and I am not even angry at those that follow its tenants. At the very most I have sympathy for them because they have just not been able to bring themselves to completely think for themselves.

bigotry?? what??
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Re: The bully

Post by VixensVengeance Yesterday at 7:53 pm

Lol did everyone give up or are you all just sitting in silent judgement?
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Re: The bully

Post by Micheal Today at 8:41 am

VixensVengeance wrote:No, I have stated that others have used christian worldviews to make me feel guilty for what they perceived as bad behaviour.

You tell me I have not read the bible and yet you claim ignorance of the passages of Genocide?

The bible has passages that depict not only genocide including pregnant women but also the destruction of those races livestock. It commands the Hebrews to take women for themselves (kidnapping, slavery, rape) and gives rules for slavery condoned by their God. It tells women to be obedient and not to speak in matters of importance. It treats them like property and allows their sacrifice and rape and selling by their fathers.

Was the bible written by God? Then he condones and endorses these things.

I don't believe that guns should be taken because of crime committed with them, I dont hate men And no the bible does not teach violence, genocide, misogyny, it condones and endorses it. Even commands it.

I'm not angry at the bible, I don't believe I ever stated that. Its just a book. and I am not even angry at those that follow its tenants. At the very most I have sympathy for them because they have just not been able to bring themselves to completely think for themselves.

bigotry?? what??

Yes I did tell you I thought you had not read the bible... I corrected myself... and now have to reverse myself again for if you have read it, it was only to reinforce a perspective and not to know it for what it is. 
To be fair... very few Christians do this as well.

You still do not give evidence of genocide.  Where their is a lot of fighting and in fact many cities completely destroyed, no where is it stated that any races ended... in fact the line of Cain has been and will always be kept around so that God has people to deal with his followers when they deviate.  The closest you can find is that the jews were ordered to wipe out populations of entire cities... but lets be honest, wiping out New York does not cause the Genocide of the US. 


And the above contradicts your next claim.  You claim Hebrews were given commands to take women for themselves... however their were strict rules against interbreeding and this was one of the reasons Babylon was sent to destroy Judea.  Saul, the first king of Judea was removed because he did let some go instead of killing them all, making room for David.

http://www.answers.com/Q/Why_did_God_lose_favor_with_King_Saul

One of the demands from God upon allowing the jews to return was for them to shed their Gentile (non jewish) families.

Ezra 9:10:15 states:

"But now, O God, what can we say after all that has happened? We have again disobeyed the commands 11that you gave us through your servants, the prophets. They told us that the land we were going to occupy was an impure land because the people who lived in it filled it from one end to the other with disgusting, filthy actions. 12 They told us that we were never to intermarry with those people and never to help them prosper or succeed if we wanted to enjoy the land and pass it on to our descendants forever. 13Even after everything that has happened to us in punishment for our sins and wrongs, we know that you, our God, have punished us less than we deserve and have allowed us to survive. 14Then how can we ignore your commandments again and intermarry with these wicked people? If we do, you will be so angry that you will destroy us completely and let no one survive. 15Lord God of Israel, you are just, but you have let us survive. We confess our guilt to you; we have no right to come into your presence.”


How can you possibly argue one and then the other?  For genocide is the determined destruction of an ethnic group/nation, interbreeding would make such impossible.

Think on it... if interbreeding can cause genocide... then would not the Hebrews also be bred out of existence?
God spent most of his time trying to keep the jews from doing this very thing.


Where their is out and out destruction within the bible that God allows, exactly what did humanity do back then that would be construed as worse then what we do now?  I mean really.  More wars have been started due to religion true... the worst ones were started by atheist.  As in more have died due to non belief than all of the religious wars put together. 

Their is not a single line which you can claim which talks about women needing to be obedient that is not immediately followed by having the men do the same to their wives... you conveniently avoid this though. 

Here, let me help you:

Ephesians 5:24 is the FAVORITE line to support this.

"Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

Of course, it looks TERRIBLE... until you read the rest of this verse:

5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

5:26
to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

5:27
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

5:29
After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church--

5:30
for we are members of his body.

5:31
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

5:32
This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church.

5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


One line telling a woman how she is to act... (for lets be honest, women mature faster so do not need a lot of direction) 9 telling a man what he is to do.  Women look to this and get offended because... THEY HAVE TO SUBMIT.  While completely ignoring that the entire next 9 lines is basically telling men they need to look past their needs and treat their women as if their lives depend on it, in a way to try to get through to their hormone driven heads, comparing women to the church (which both elevates women above men as well as points out that it is women who will help to enlarge the church through procreation).  The best thing men can do is try to be like Jesus... which the bible tells time and again that we will fail to do. 

But yes... this puts women down... Rolling Eyes
This is why you leave me at a loss.  You are far smarter then this.  At least try to put together a decent argument and refrain from utilizing worn out arguments put forth by people dumber then you.  All you do is bring yourself down to them.








Yes, their are rules about slavery, a person back then could sell themselves.  The bible demanded this be no more then a 7 year period and that slaves were to be treated as family.
Now a days we are not allowed to be free for what?  25 to 30 years until you can retire?  Yeah... your non-biblical folks did us a hell of a good turn...  Slavery back then meant you chose to work for another instead of work for yourself.  But yeah... its worse because back then to not work for yourself was called slavery.  Now it is called contractual employment, which only a few qualify for, most of us have to get employed and hope to not be fired... contractual employees can be bought out... the rest of us can be fired for nothing, imagine being a 64 year old facing being fired 1 year before you can retire, that's who's job this Christian saved so he could continue his slavery.  But the slaves chose to enslave themselves... just like we do.  But for a far less term... and during that slavery, they were normally taught how to fend for themselves.  Almost forgot, slaves also served for law infractions.  In this day and age... its a benefit to a convicted criminal to be allowed to work while incarcerated. 

Now a days, those who live off the grid and fend for themselves are thought to be weird. 

The book of Philemon shows what the bible thought about slavery:

https://www.thoughtco.com/book-of-philemon-701039


What did God endorse?

Genocide?  You will never be able to show an instance so no.

Taking of gentile women.  Jews (which is what you seem to look at) no.  Christians, where they are allowed to intermarry, they cannot take a woman against their will.  So no.

Slavery?  Mine and your version is worse then it ever was... so yes but not in the form of what the South had prior to 1865, more like what we know as employment. 

Women must submit to their men? Rolling Eyes  Such a pathetic argument.  WTH are people supposed to do in marriage?  Yes, I know your past husband failed to do this for you.  And for that I am sorry that the church supported him.  You do yourself an injustice to think they represent the bible.

That is the society we live in... not the bible... so does God support this?  No.


Last edited by Micheal on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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